I use 9oz paintball tanks for other purposes (powering air tools, carbonating water, etc).

Get yourself a decent sized CO2 siphon cylinder (I use a 20lb). If you can find a CO2 fire extinguisher at a garage sale like me, you can trade it in for the cost of a refill+hydrotest.

Then get a two-valve fill station with a muffler. They can be had on eBay for around $40.

Now, you can refill your paintball tanks for pennies as often as you like.

 

If it works for you, go for it!!!
I know what you mean. I call them welding miracles. I worked in a shop where we had a big alum. wheel rim that was MIG welded with LA-S6 to mild steel flat bar, so it could be bolted to our bending table. Now that's just plain old witchcraft!!!!! Guess no one told her you can't do that!:laugh::laugh:

 

There's a lot you can get by in still air with close stickout.

However, have you had your flowmeter calibrated? It may very well be reading lower than your actual output.

 

I first started i used 20 all the time just lately i backed it down to 15CFH i may try lower yet i weld inside no air movement at all.

 

Stated by the PO:
In reality, I get rather less than this - maybe 25 - 30 minutes tops. Why?
With start/stop welding, like tacking for example, the pressure builds in the line behind the gas solenoid valve because the single stage regulator (used by 99% of us folks) only regulates well with continuous flow. When you click the trigger on, you can hear a burst of higher pressure/high flow gas out the nozzle - much louder than the sound of continuous (trigger pulled) gas flow rate.

The reason for the burst is that the regulators are generally set at 50psi and the pressure within the line before the solenoid gets compressed to that value when the valve is shut, but once the valve is opened and the compressed gas is released, the orifice at the regulator controls the flow. The hose may also expand a bit, of course.
On my unit with a flowmeter, I reduced the delivery pressure and opened the control valve enough to get the flow I need; the 'meter' may not read accurately at lower pressure, but it will be consistent, and the results tell whether it is enough flow, or not. I don't get such a burst of gas initially anymore. Yes, I'm a Heretic!

 

So I take then that you are using the type of flow meter with the ball and not the the dual meter flowmeter, right?Looks like you set your flow so low that you are using the burst you get on startup somehow to make it through your complete weld because the ball type is very inefficient on stop start for wasting gas.Would like to see more though with argon/co2 how low you can go.The best way of consumming less with this setup is to go with a smaller supply line.

 

I think someone else stated turn your reg down so your welds start having holes in it then bring up pressure just enough so it welds correctly,that's your sweet spot.

 

that's a good way to tell when you don't have enough gas.

I used to be concerned with my mig gas....until I started tig welding. Damn!!!!! I go through alot of argon! :dizzy: :dizzy: gotta keep the tungsten cool and need post flow to cool the finished weld properly.

 

Thanks for the interesting reply posts!

Maybe I got lucky becasue as Supe said,

There's a lot you can get by in still air with close stickout.

Pistolnoon and Supe asked questions about my flow meter.

However, have you had your flowmeter calibrated? It may very well be reading lower than your actual output.

Actually, I don't have a flow meter. I don't even have a gas output pressure gauge!
Here's my gas regulator / tank set up.

How do I know my gas flow rate? I calibrated my regulator for my exact set up.
See that T-handle on the regulator? First I turn it back - backing out the screw until the end inside the regulator doesn't touch the internal diaphram, then I screw it in until I can 'just' feel it touch the diaphram. That is the zero position = zero flow.

From zero position, as I progressively screw it in, the gas pressure and flow will increase.
The trick is to determine the gas flow rate for several 1/4 or 1/2 turn positions of the T-handle.
You can do this with a one-time calibration for your specific welding machine.

How? Like this...
Upend a water-filled clear plastic jug of about 1 gallon capacity in a large bowl full of water. Let the gas bubble into the jug forcing the water out. For each position of the T-handle on your regulator, time how long it takes to push out a known volume of water from the jug. This gives you volume per unit time = gas flow rate. It's messy and time-consumming but quite accurate and reproduceable.

At then end of the process, you end up with a calibration record for your regulator/welding machine. Here's the one I keep inside my SP-175T.

In my record, SET = how many turns of the T-handle from the zero position. You can see that my record covers up to 4 turns (22.3 CFH) of the T-handle.
So, if I want say 4 CFH, the record tells me I need something between 1.25 and 1.5 turns of the T-handle from the zero position.

Note: I had changed welders and had to redo the water-jug calibration because the gas flow restrictions (hose length, diameter, nozzle holes, etc.) were quite different between the two welders giving totally different gas flow rates.

Don't want to bother with all that?
I like Daman simple approach.

I think someone else stated turn your reg down so your welds start having holes in it then bring up pressure just enough so it welds correctly,that's your sweet spot.

Rick V.:waving:

 

How do you get the gas from the jug back into the tank?

 

lol!


When I'm at home using my TB on tig, I'll go about 12-13CFH (less than the recommended I think), I'm using a 110cuft ar tank so I try to conserve.

at my work, on the big bottle system it's set somewhere really high. somewhere around 45-50 cfh if i recall.
feels like a hurricane coming out of the cup. Messes up the puddle a slight bit, but there's nothing much I can do about it since I'm just a nobody there... and to them more gas = better!

 

How do you get the gas from the jug back into the tank? - paulinkansas

:laugh: Good One!
Rick V.:waving:

 

at my work, on the big bottle system it's set somewhere really high. somewhere around 45-50 cfh if i recall.
feels like a hurricane coming out of the cup. Messes up the puddle a slight bit, but there's nothing much I can do about it since I'm just a nobody there... and to them more gas = better!

Too much can induce a draft and actually draw air into the weld zone.

 

Here read this it will confuse you some more, I read it twice and I still don't quite get the full explaination so I printed it out and I am studying it more.I have both types of regulators.Don't like the fact that some numbers did not print well.

http://www.netwelding.com/Shielding_Gas_Control_Download.pdf

We might be hearing more about gas waste in the future considering co2 is considered a greenhouse gas, I dunno thought trees needed co2 for photosynthesis?

Two ways of preventing gas waste and that is to stop making unnecessary stops and starts,so prep your work well, understand what you have to weld, get 'er done and this will eliminate those high pressure bursts that are gas wastin, and keep your supply hose the smallest inside diameter you can get it if you ever have to replace it.

 

My settings

With Binzel Alpha torches I set to 12 - 22cfh with Co2 (with higher energy, lower settings quiet the puddle). With C10 I (for pulse or spray) I set to 16 to 32 cfh (the pulse needs less).

Roundabout welder with Miller torch, flows go from 24 to 36 (this setup uses Co2 and Argon bottles and various mixes are used for the best arc performance through a manifold).

Kemmpi torch is set to 16cfh with Co2 and 20cfh with C25.

WP-18 Tig torch with gas lenses 6 - 12 cfh (lower with deep crack repair, K-joint and large torch angles).

WP-9 Kemmpi with gas lense 6 - 12 cfh, without 12 -18cfh.

Gantry bore welder (miller torch) usually set to 20 cfh with Co2

Boa 308 borewelder is set to 12 - 18cfh with Co2 or C25

Torch angle and puddle size both can affect arc performance vs gas flow. I have needle and seat flowmeters on all setups and am nuts about how I open the gas bottles (quick opening can damage the pressure regulators, and then you get the real big poof when flow starts).

Matt

 

Hey pistolnoon, that is an interesting article - Thanks!

In my view, the author does a delicate balancing act between:
- Professionally and clearly explaining the problem, and
- Offering his murky explanation of his patented solution for sale.

Here is the 'essence' of what I think the article says.

Explanation of the Problem
The shielding gas delivery hose, between the cylinder gas regulator/flowmeter and the internal gas solenoid/valve in the welder, is subjected to increased pressure when the solenoid/valve cuts the gas flow to the welding nozzle.

He used the example:
For an 80 psi regulator/flowmeter and only 3 psi needed to achieve the desired flow rate, 5.3 times the physical hose volume of excess gas is stored in the hose when welding stops. e.g. (80 psi+15 psi)/(3 psi + 15 psi) = 5.3X
Also, a standard ¼ inch ID gas hose expands about 13% when subjected to these pressure levels.
The amount of excess gas is 5.3 (due to pressure) X 1.13 (due to hose expansion) = 6 times the physical hose volume.
Every time the MIG gun switch is pulled this excess gas is rapidly expelled out the gun nozzle; most of it wasted.

Patented Solution for Sale
The Gas Saver System (GSS) is patented device consisting of an 1/8 inch ID heavy wall hose instead of the more typical 1/4 inch thin-wall hose. The hose includes an orifice at welder gas solenoid/valve end of the hose to limit surge flow rate and avoid excess turbulence at the weld start.

Summary
That's it. In layman's terms, the solution offered is a two-fold: a small diameter, thick wall hose - containing an orfice at the welder end.

1 Small/stiff ID Hose: The idea of the small/stiff-wall hose is to keep the internal hose volume small between the regulator/flowmeter and the welder gas solenoid/valve. Saves maybe 13% on gas because of limted volume and little expansion of the hose.

2 Orifice: An orifice (pinhole) inside the hose just before the gas solenoid/valve of the welder. The idea is that the pressure build up in the hose can no longer rush out of the over-pressurized hose when the welder solenoid/valve opens because the orifice restricts the flow. Save the other 87% on gas.

What's this mean for us?
My hose is 1/4 inch ID, only 8 inches long and quite rigid (old rubber gets hard!)
I could benefit somewhat by shoving a plastic liner inside my gas hose to reduce the internal diameter. This may be more of a challenge for users of longer hoses but certainly feasible.

Add an orifice! That seems to be where the big gas savings lay. Maybe one could use one of the gas orifices that Benzomatic sell for their propane torches? You can find those parts for sale at many hardware stores. Likely the hole in the orifice may be too small but a set of tiny 'number' drills could be used to drill out/expand the existing hole.

Interesting...

Rick V:waving:

 

Add an orifice! That seems to be where the big gas savings lay. Maybe one could use one of the gas orifices that Benzomatic sell for their propane torches? You can find those parts for sale at many hardware stores. Likely the hole in the orifice may be too small but a set of tiny 'number' drills could be used to drill out/expand the existing hole.

Interesting...

Rick V:waving:

I have thought that a MIG contact tip would work well for an orifice because of its known diameter. I guess it could be drilled out fairly easily. Because they are made of copper, they can be soldered fairly easily.

I wonder what size would be good? I have no idea how to calculate gas flow through an orifice

Sadly, I have never used this. Maybe I should go and do so!

 

My reg is set up with a .032 for C-25 75/25.

 

I notice they sell some nice fibre tig hose covers also.

 

I shoved some clear plastic (vinyl) tubing inside my existing 8 inch long, 1/4 inch ID (actual 14-15/64) gas hose.
The tubing I used was about 14/64th OD and 7/64th ID. See - 1.

I also had two brass fittings at the entry to the welder with large internal diameters. I stuffed these fittings with short lengths (some cut at 45 degrees) of various diameter tubing - both took two tubes (one inside the other - co-axial). See - 2 and 3.

The picture below shows where I placed the tubing in locations 1, 2 and 3.

THE RESULTS???
Well it seems better. Is it really? Who knows.:laugh:
Before: Pull the trigger. You heard a 'Poof' of gas followed by a 'whooshing' reduction until you reached a constant barely audible 'whooo' of continuous gas flow.
Now: Pull the trigger. You defintely hear a smaller 'Poof' of gas followed very quickly by a briefier 'whooshing' reduction until you reach a constant barely audible 'whooo' of continuous gas flow.

In theory, I have reduced the internal diameter of the hose from 14/64 to 7/64 - by half. This is a volume reduction proportional to the ID^2 = 4X.
I also reduced the internal volume space in the fittings by a factor of 4.
Thus I should have 1/4 the volume of gas subject to pressurization in the hose. That can't hurt and should make things better.

Do I have definitive data? No.
Did I add an orifice? No.

It is really better? After all my work... Sure!:laugh:

Rick V:waving: