[WNY_TomB]

Let me know if you find a good source for this "rest of the world" 6013, i would like to try it out and see what it is all about.

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i have noticed Hobart 6013 from Tractor Supply runs a little different than Lincoln 6013
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Hobart is rated at lower amps so possibly flux is thinner and it is more fast freeze (6010/6011 is fast freeze too). most rutile 6013 rods have some cellulose which gives some properties that 6010/6011 has
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thinner flux covering you usually hold a arc length rather than a drag rod which thicker flux covering is usually drag rods.
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so i believe some 6013 is better for out of position welding and less slag problems (thin flux covered rods) and thick flux 6013 is better for flat welding and just dragging rod.
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either way 6013 will fill a big gap but that does not mean the filled gap is high quality metal. Cosmetic welding or welding for surface appearance and welding a fully penetrated joint like pipe welding requires different welding technique
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plenty of pipe is welded with 6013 but you can be sure they are properly preparing joint and not just filling a big gap or badly prepared joint

 

[wnywelder]

Do you know hobart has different lines of electrodes too? Department store Hobart is not the same as Hobart Brothers sold through welding distributors. http://www.hobartbrothers.com/products/stick-electrodes.html

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[WNY_TomB]

Do you know hobart has different lines of electrodes too? Department store Hobart is not the same as Hobart Brothers sold through welding distributors. http://www.hobartbrothers.com/products/stick-electrodes.html

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hobart catalog lists 2 types of 6013 type 447A and 447C
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447C is listed as some fast freeze so possibly C is cellulose which gives it some 6010/6011 properties
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if you look up common 6010 and 6011 types they often have some rutile mixed in with cellulose so many rods are a mix and not 100% cellulose or rutile flux

 

[wheresmejumper]

The differences between rr rb and rc rods are subtle.a rutile cellulose 6013 is nothing like a 6011 to use.they are not even in the same ballpark.they won't freeze quicker or penetrate deeper to the naked eye.
There is more attention paid to the brand of rod really,rather than its designation.probably the best rods out there are rare enough and called Murex Vodex.pricey but worth it.around a long time and the preferred rod in pipe,shipyards etc,where 6013 is specified.if you are always getting slag in your welds and having the odd part break,then you are wasting your time buying any 'exotic' 6013.you probably won't detect much difference.in most of the world 6013 is what people begin welding with,privately and professionally.there is a big head scratching moment when progressing onto lohi.you have to forget almost everything about running 6013.it will be the opposite in america.throw the 7018 manual out the window.

 

[jmay]

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hobart catalog lists 2 types of 6013 type 447A and 447C
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447C is listed as some fast freeze so possibly C is cellulose which gives it some 6010/6011 properties
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if you look up common 6010 and 6011 types they often have some rutile mixed in with cellulose so many rods are a mix and not 100% cellulose or rutile flux

Ever try Esab sureweld 6013? I have heard they are a good electrode. Lance did a Hobart vs Lincoln 6013 video. I think Hobart was Much stronger than Fleetweld 37 in the video.

 

[WNY_TomB]

The differences between rr rb and rc rods are subtle.a rutile cellulose 6013 is nothing like a 6011 to use.they are not even in the same ballpark.they won't freeze quicker or penetrate deeper to the naked eye.
There is more attention paid to the brand of rod really,rather than its designation.probably the best rods out there are rare enough and called Murex Vodex.pricey but worth it.around a long time and the preferred rod in pipe,shipyards etc,where 6013 is specified.if you are always getting slag in your welds and having the odd part break,then you are wasting your time buying any 'exotic' 6013.you probably won't detect much difference.in most of the world 6013 is what people begin welding with,privately and professionally.there is a big head scratching moment when progressing onto lohi.you have to forget almost everything about running 6013.it will be the opposite in america.throw the 7018 manual out the window.

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welding rod companies are calling some types of 6013 fast freeze which usually is what cellulose rods like 6010/6011 are. i merely am noting that a lot of rods are a mix of rutile, cellulose, basic and they vary flux coating thickness which effects arc length needing to be maintained and heavy slag/flux can create slag entrapment problems
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some 6013 you drag and other you hold a arc length often up to one rod diameter. kind of different dragging rod and holding a 1/8" arc length. some 6013 seems to give a hotter puddle if you hold a arc length and seems colder if dragging. this might explain welds with 6013 and some not getting enough penetration...... other rods are hotter if dragging rod. very much can change with different brands of 6013

 

[WNY_TomB]

Ever try Esab sureweld 6013? I have heard they are a good electrode. Lance did a Hobart vs Lincoln 6013 video. I think Hobart was Much stronger than Fleetweld 37 in the video.

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those videos are not the most accurate. when preforming a test a weld bead that penetrates more is actually a bigger weld and can test stronger. that why they machine weld samples to size before testing so every thing is same size precisely
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i will try different welding rods. for years i used lincoln and airco rods for decades. some times better to see what else is out there

 

[wnywelder]

Looked up Esab Sureweld like jmay suggested. Looks interesting. Their 6013 is charpy rated at 35ft lbs, which beats out both their 6010 and 7024 electrodes. Still doesn't hold a candle to Atom Arc 7018, but would surely be acceptible for most non critical and non code applications. So i stand corrected.

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[TomA]

When I started welding in 1959 I always felt that 6013 made a more profesional weld. 6011 was the "farmers rod". I used a lot of 6011 for patching up my own stuff because everything was always rusty and I didn't care what the results looked like as long as it held together. If I was working on something for hire or with new material I always used 6013. The slag chips off easily and leaves a beautiful weld. When 7018 came out I went to that but I never felt as comfortable as with 6013. One of the jobs I take the most pride in is when I welded grouser bars on my D4 Cat. When I started I was using an old engine drive Hobart running 5/16" 7018. After I finished the first side the old Hobart quit, I guess I exceeded the duty cycle and fried the armature. I only had my old 180 Lincoln buzz box an it would not run 7018. I welded the other side with 5/32" 6013. This was nearly 20 years ago and not one weld has failed and I am hard pressed to tell the difference. I will have to take pictures someday.

 

[wnywelder]

I ordered 5 lbs of Esab Sureweld 6013 today, it should be in early next week. I"ll make sure to post an update once I burn some.

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[jmay]

I ordered 5 lbs of Esab Sureweld 6013 today, it should be in early next week. I"ll make sure to post an update once I burn some.

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Yep gonna order some myself that's why I mentioned them. I don't burn many 6013 but was kinda curious about the Esab 6013 for some strange reason.

 

[wnywelder]

After aquiring the Powr Kraft AC225 welder and all the electrodes that came with it ( http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?589181-Scored-a-225-ac-welder-for-30-today!,) I really don't need more.... but I want to check it out and let everyone know how the Sureweld does.

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[jmay]

Looking at the Esab 6013 it has higher yield and tensile strength than the Esab 7014. Kinda odd.

 

[wnywelder]

I am pretty excited to try the esab 6013 out. I'm even toying with the idea of making a youtube video as I test it.

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[WNY_TomB]

any 6013 testing i would see what manufacturer recommends. not all 6013 is a drag rod or short arc rod unless it has a extra thick coating
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many 6013 rods have a lot hotter of a arc by holding a 1 rod dia arc length. that is 1/8 arc length using a 1/8 dia 6013 rod.
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if somebody drags rod (short arc) then gets low penetration then says their testing proves it has lack of penetration it maybe just proves they are not using the rod correctly.

 

[wnywelder]

Perhaps a video comparing results dragging and maintaining a modest arc length?

 

[WNY_TomB]

Perhaps a video comparing results dragging and maintaining a modest arc length?

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most welding books with normal flux covering of 6013 rod recommend a 1 rod arc length and with 7014 which has a thicker flux covering you hold a shorter arc length or drag rod as rod end with flux forms a cone and arc is in a bit at end of rod. what is confusing is 6013 in Europe is often R or RR and RR means double dipped or extra thick flux covering so basically you can buy hold a arc length or buy drag (short arc) 6013 rod depending on what you want
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what is confusing is welding machine with a high arc force setting when you drag rod they automatically go up in amps maybe 5 to 100 amps depending on machine setting. on weld machines with a low arc force setting if you drag rod the amps does not go up and cause of shorter arc the heat is less and penetration is less. often quite noticeable and obvious
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so basically depending on welding machine and how it welds or its arc force setting you can get different results dragging 6013 rod. with a 120 volt 80 amp welder i can obviously see hotter arc with a 1/16 to 3/32 arc length probably cause machine acts like it has zero arc force or zero amp change with short arc and if you drag or bury the arc it is not as efficient at heat transfer and you get colder welds

 

[jmay]

I stated earlier I struggle to see what the puddle is doing with 6013 rods. I see the puddle but can't see it like I see it with 6011 and 7018. The slag is terrible to see through for me.

I have tried different rod angles and temps and various other things with little success. I admit as strange as it may seem I am great with every mild steel electrode but 6013 Its my nemesis. It bugs me to proficient in the others and be inconsistent with 6013. Open to any suggestions.

 

[Welder Dave]

Wow! If 7014 and 7024 are the same flux except for added iron powder, how do you explain that they have 10,000 PSI higher tensile strength and better penetration? They can't just pick numbers and say a rod is stronger. There has to be something else in the flux to add that additional strength. I can't ever recall when India was ever known for their welding expertise. :dizzy: I do know that Alberta has a reputation for the best pipe welders in the world and have some of the highest welding standards in the world as well. The largest apprentice training facility in Canada is in Alberta and the welding division has set up training in several other countries because of their world renowned reputation. They are the only welding program in the world that is accredited by Lloyds of London. With MIG so prominent, there's not much use for 6013 in any kind of production welding of sheet metal. 7024 which used to be very popular for production welding on large oilfield tanks and such has all but been taken over by flux-core. CEP did simple hammer blow tests of fillet welds and 6013 was by far the weakest taking only 4 blows to break if I recall. There are better choices than 6013 for 95% of weldments.

 

[jmay]

Wow! If 7014 and 7024 are the same flux except for added iron powder, how do you explain that they have 10,000 PSI higher tensile strength and better penetration? They can't just pick numbers and say a rod is stronger. There has to be something else in the flux to add that additional strength. I can't ever recall when India was ever known for their welding expertise. :dizzy: I do know that Alberta has a reputation for the best pipe welders in the world and have some of the highest welding standards in the world as well. The largest apprentice training facility in Canada is in Alberta and the welding division has set up training in several other countries because of their world renowned reputation. They are the only welding program in the world that is accredited by Lloyds of London. With MIG so prominent, there's not much use for 6013 in any kind of production welding of sheet metal. 7024 which used to be very popular for production welding on large oilfield tanks and such has all but been taken over by flux-core. CEP did simple hammer blow tests of fillet welds and 6013 was by far the weakest taking only 4 blows to break if I recall. There are better choices than 6013 for 95% of weldments.

I agree with most everything you said except about the Alberta pipe welders every body knows Texas has the best of everything .

I looked at Hobart, Lincoln, an Esab as welded data for 6013 vs. There 7014 and most cases tensil, yield, elongation, and impact properties measured quite a bit better with 6013. I would have never guessed that. Go check it out. The only thing I seen 7014 better at was lbs per hour.